Interview with Pastor Liliana Stahlberg
Interview with Pastor Darlene Muschett Lord of the Mountains Lutheran Church, Dillon CO October 11, 2018 Moving forward with my Alternative Residency Formation Plan to be approved for ordination by the Rocky Mountain Synod Candidacy Committee, I will be focusing my interviews to answer the following question: What are the joys and challenges of congregational ministry? To answer this question, I will ask:
I had scheduled an interview with Pastor Liliana Stahlberg and upon my arrival; I was asked if Pastor Darlene Muschett could join us for the interview. I was delighted to agree to have both pastors included in my interview for the formation plan. Pastor Liliana first came to Lord of the Mountains Lutheran Church (LOTM) as a Redevelopment Pastor on September 4, 2016. On February 25, 2018, Pastor Liliana was called as the Permanent Pastor of Lord of the Mountains. Pastor Darlene assumed the position of Discipleship Coordinator in November of 2013. Note: This is the most extensive summary I have written for this project as this was the only interview I recorded. At each of the other interviews, I took notes and wrote my summary from my notes. Due to interviewing two individuals at the same time, I elected to record the interview, with the permission of the participants, in order to have an accurate summary of our conversation. What strengths did you bring to your ministry setting? Pastor Liliana said she is originally from Romania and she grew up in the Eastern Orthodox Church and she said that church shaped the first 45 years of her life. She said the Eastern Orthodox Church is known for its spirituality, so she underwent that training, not in an official way, but by attending church and being active in the life of the church; as much as was possible “given the fact I am a woman and women do not really have a role in the Orthodox Church…Spirituality has been important in my life.” Pastor Liliana said she brought with her to America all her experiences in Romania where she worked ecumenically after 1989 when there was a revolution in that country. She said after the revolution, the World Council of Churches started an ecumenical association of churches in Romania. They brought together the three historical churches that existed in Romania: the Romanian Orthodox Church, the German Lutheran Church, and the Hungarian Reformed Church. Initially, only priests and pastors were hired by the organization, but Pastor Liliana said she proved herself to be committed to ecumenism and with the help of international agencies, she became the first female to work in the ecumenical association. She was the coordinator of the Social Diaconal Program and through that job she was connected to the World Council of Churches where she became a Commissioner in Unit 3, Justice, Peace, and Integrity of Creation. She also became a member of the Working Group on Women and also a member of the Executive Group of Unit 3. She said it was wonderful training as she was able to meet theologians from around the world—literally from around the world—Africa, Indonesia, Western Europe, and America. She said she worked closely with the National Council of Churches in New York and would come to meetings in the United States three times a year in order to learn and apply what she learned back in Romania. She said her work in Romania gave her a solid foundation in ecumenism and theology. She has deep roots in her work for justice and equality for women. She was one of the founders of the Ecumenical Forum of European Christian Women in Romania which brought together women of nine denominations looking for commonalities. She said it was unique for they were able to share their faith traditions without diluting them for the sake of ecumenism. They were able to bring together nine denominations instead of the practice of the male association of including only trinitarian denominations. For example, when a Unitarian church applied to the male ecumenical association, the male association rejected their application, but the Ecumenical Forum of European Christian Women approved the Unitarian application. Pastor Liliana said she worked in Romania for peace and justice as there was significant conflict between ethnicities and confessional differences between the different denominations. Romania had many different active Christian denominations so the Ecumenical Forum of European Christian Women in Romania worked to bring together women from the different denominations to work for peace and justice. Pastor Liliana said in her limited free time, she became interested in the plight of “street children.” She said she had never heard of street children before 1989, but soon after the revolution, children began to run away from orphanages and there were children living on the streets. Pastor Liliana said she and an American social worker began to do outreach work in the streets and in 1995 a homeless shelter for children was opened which provided comprehensive programs for the children. She was instrumental in the formation of a foster care program for street children who had aged out of the programs they developed for younger children. Pastor Liliana said she never studied social work, but she was very interested in churches collaborating and working together for the common good. If there is one thing that brings all churches together that is Matthew 25: 36-36: “For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.” She went on to say, “No church disagrees with that, so theologically I could bring churches to work together at the shelter. I could bring students of theology to practice compassion and to learn how to deal with justice issues in society.” Pastor Liliana said her dream was to become a priest, but the “Orthodox does not ordain women.” Pastor Liliana said she had a friend in Denver who she had worked toward the goal of ordination of women in the Orthodox Church, but they knew it would never happen in their lifetimes. Her friend had come to Denver and attended the Iliff School of Theology and she convinced Pastor Liliana to come to Denver to attend seminary. She said she entered Iliff as an Orthodox Lutheran as the term appeared in the directory. She was able to secure a full scholarship and finished her studies in three years. At that time, she began attending Augustana Lutheran Church where her future husband, the Rev. Dr. Wolfgang Stahlberg, was the associate pastor. Pastor Lilian’s love for people, love for children, her extensive experience working for justice and peace with the World Council of Churches, and ecumenism with the Ecumenical Forum of European Christian Women in Romania all contribute to the strengths she brought with her as Pastor of Lord of the Mountains. Pastor Darlene said she grew up in the American Baptist Church. She described her church as “very loving, open, sharing, outreaching congregation. When I was 16 years old, I was in training in youth leadership. One day I was singing in choir and the only way to tell you this…there was Jesus. It wasn’t a great light like St. Paul, but there was this little flicker of light and I felt love overcoming me from the top of my head to my toes and I couldn’t keep singing. Silently I kept thinking this was real, just like in the Bible. This continues to be the most transformative experience in my life. I knew that night when I was 16, I knew when I grew up I would be serving Jesus as a parish pastor. I am still not grown up because not only have I fallen in love with Jesus, but with my wonderful spouse of almost 50 years, our one child who brings us so much joy. I am a very blessed person.” Pastor Darlene said she was a Spanish major at Penn State. She went on to translate material at the New Jersey state health department into Spanish and then went on to organize immunization programs for children. She then got married and could not find work, so she went to the University of Maryland and got a master’s degree in Spanish education. During the summers, she taught the children of migrant workers English. She said she has always liked working with children and has always wanted to find ways to empower children. She said she has a deep passion for justice for children. With a master’s degree in hand, Pastor Darlene worked as a guidance counselor and helped put her husband through his graduate studies at the University of Michigan. After that, she entered seminary, when her son was a year old. During seminary, Pastor Darlene worked with women developing programs to increase self-esteem. After seminary, she worked two part-time calls as an associate pastor in Ithaca NY and Cortland NY. In 1984, she was called as pastor at Christ Lutheran Church in Rochester NY. “It took over four years to feel the acceptance of the good folks, but they had been betrayed by a previous pastor and it was difficult for the first four-and-a-half years to feel that I was really accepted as their pastor. In 1989, we merged with another Lutheran church in Rochester and God’s spirit blessed us and it went very well.” Pastor Darlene talked about experiencing compassion fatigue in the mid-1990s and she said it was no surprise her D. Min. thesis was on burnout: “One pastor’s journey into burnout and beyond.” She said she was able to connect Martin Luther’s justification in faith with helping individuals cope with burnout. She said she felt God’s spirit was drawing her into contemplative prayer. In 2000, she did a two-year program in spiritual leadership and fell in love with centering prayer. Pastor Darlene said she “retired in 2005 and have since flunked retirement twice.” She served as an interim pastor in Maryland for a year and after she moved to Dillon CO in 2009, she took the position of Director of Children’s Ministry. She held that part-time position until the fall of 2013, when she became the Discipleship Coordinator for the congregation; the position she serves in now. Pastor Darlene described her strengths as her love of God and her love for people. “I am rather extroverted, I give my husband a lot of credit…he really listens a great deal. I want to continue to grow.” She said for her, faith means growing trust. She said her call now is to go anywhere and teach centering prayer. She said she will go anywhere to help anyone “go deeper with God.” What were your areas of growth? Pastor Liliana: “We all grow, we never arrive. For me growth in faith and in life are very important and I have discovered the best way to grow is within a congregation; in a community of the faithful. I make mistakes, people hold me accountable in a very gentle way and I hold them accountable, so it is a journey together with God’s faithful people.” “I am a trained spiritual director and as I provide spiritual direction, I receive spiritual direction. As I see people grow, as we share our lives is an opportunity for growth. For me, growth is the natural journey of faith.” Pastor Darlene said her area of growth is the deepening spiritual journey we are all in. We have to recognize we don’t have to be right; we have to be compassionate. Do justice issues impact how you do ministry? Pastors Liliana and Darlene both agreed their call is to love and show love. Pastor Liliana said, “We are both trying to foster an openness; an openness to new ideas and new challenges.” Pastor Liliana said for the past two Sundays, they have invited the Muslim community in Summit County to come to Lord of the Mountains to teach about Islam. The second presentation was followed by a luncheon where everyone could come and ask questions, get answers, and get to know each other. She said they have found more commonalities than they had thought possible. Pastor Lilian said in this congregation, “not in my doing, but in the people’s doing, we have a team which works on preventing gun violence. We also have a group of people working on justice for immigrants. We collaborate with other justice organizations, one of them being Family Intercultural Resource Center. Together we work on obtaining temporary driver’s license for immigrants. There are people in this congregation who spend an enormous amount of time accompanying immigrants to Denver to the DMV getting them informed on what possibilities are there for immigrants.” Pastor Darlene said she works with a program called Day Services. On Wednesday and Friday afternoons from 1 pm to 4 pm, people are welcome to use the computers, phone, take a shower, or do their laundry. People can have lunch as well. Pastor Darlene said she is responsible for getting volunteers to staff the church during Day Services. She said the people she has served are so grateful. Pastor Liliana said there is a member of the congregation who is interested in starting a homeless shelter in Dillon. She said she is in full support of the idea, but nothing has come to fruition, yet. A second member has become involved and there is a renewed effort going forward for a shelter in Summit County. Pastor Liliana said “I have a heart for the homeless” which is readily apparent whenever she spoke about the Day Services program or creating a homeless shelter in Summit County. Pastor Liliana also recognized a need for mental health services in Summit County and wants to collaborate with the National Association of Mental Illness (NAMI) to help bring mental health services to Summit County. Pastor Liliana underscored the need for collaboration and said a member of the congregation has helped create an interfaith council in Summit County to foster cooperation between religious organizations in the county. With the help of a member of the congregation, the interfaith council has become a 501(c)(3) non-profit. Events are sponsored every year to provide interfaith gatherings. There is hope that the Muslim community will join the interfaith council. Pastor Darlene posed a summary of Pastor Liliana’s ministry: “In collaboration with God and others.” Pastor Liliana picked up on the “collaboration” aspect as she lifts cooperation and collaboration her goal of ministry. Pastor Liliana went on to say, “We cannot do anything without God and God won’t do anything without us.” Pastor Darlene replied, “Yes, she does.” Pastor Liliana commented she has advocated and fostered collaborative leadership at LOTM. She said her main role is to “empower people to bring their gifts, develop their gifts, and multiply their gifts for the good of all. We use our gifts for the glory of God.” She acknowledged the fact that people will rise to the level of leadership if they empowered. Pastor Darlene said when the pastor gets out of the way, you get a growing body of Christ “and that is what we have here [at LOTM]. Pastor Liliana said “the head of the church remains Christ.” How does the geographical setting of your ministry impact how you do ministry? Pastor Liliana: “People are here to play; they like to ski, they like to hike. We have a congregation that is quite transitional. We have people who are coming to be here for the summertime for the beautiful weather and the hikes, then they go somewhere else. There are others who come just for winter, skiing. The time that they take time to serve the body of Christ, to be a part of the body of Christ while they are here is touching my heart very deeply. They combine regular life and pleasure and combine it with faith. We have people come here from all over the world and from all over Colorado. They find us as their church home away from home and they really love it.” Pastor Liliana went on to say that geography and justice intersect in one of the most significant issues in the mountains: affordable housing. She commented, “Housing costs are very high and as a church we can address it.” Pastor Liliana said LOTM is probably the only church in the area that is accepting of LGBT individuals. Pastor Liliana said there are many LGBT individual individuals and couples who are members of the church. She said she preaches about radical inclusivity. She went on to say there are many heterosexual couples who attend LOTM because of the inclusion of all people. Pastor Darlene agreed with Pastor Liliana and said it is so important to welcome all people. What advice would you have for a new pastor? Pastor Liliana said when she was a new pastor, she went to an experienced pastor and asked him the question, “what advice to you have for me?” He replied, “learn from the people how to be a new pastor. What I discovered is the saying attributed to Augustine, but it may be someone else, ‘love and do what you want.’” She went on to say the bottom line is love, “it isn’t all about theology, it is about relationships.” She said the church is a “place, a community that creates radical acceptance so people can become everything God created them to become. It is so beautiful when you see it happening and you know you are in the kingdom of God.” She said when she first came to LOTM, she told the people, “I am here to help you discover the wonder who you are.” Pastor Darlene said “don’t try to do it all. Accept your limits and your humanity. Don’t be afraid to be who you are. Be open. Be vulnerable. Be ever seeking the guidance and presence of our outstanding God.” Pastor Liliana said “if you are open, you receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit. You have to boldly ask for it and then open your mind, eyes, heart and the gift is there. The Spirit will move you in amazing ways. The Spirit is here right now; it is never absent. We may experience it as an absence because we are tired or put up some a shield, but she is there.” Pastor Darlene quoted one of her mentors, Thomas Keating, who said, “the chief thing that separates us from God is the thought we are separated from God and we’re not.” Pastor Darlene said, “I cherish that quote and all he has done for humanity.” Pastor Darlene said it is important to pray and to grow in awareness of the presence of the Spirit. In closing, Pastor Liliana said in November of 2016, the building was desecrated by graffiti on the back wall. The graffiti was covered over the winter, but in the spring the graffiti was painted over and a discussion began about painting a mural on the back wall. An artist was identified—a member of the congregation—who had a business called “Transforming Walls.” Pastor Liliana said she wanted a mural that spoke to the witness around us; about who we are and what we are about. A banner was designed and with all the symbols of all the religions around the world and other symbols about what people think God is about. “We have love, peace and we have done this as a community event.” The mural was completed in June of 2017. Members of the interfaith council and people not connected to any church participated. The artist created the outline and the people filled in the mural with color. Pastor Liliana said the event stands as a witness of love and peace in the world. Pastor Liliana said the church has not been touched since. Reflection For refection, I am to answer the following questions: What do they tell you about you? How does your particular lens as a Latina Transgender minister affect how you hear and see the work of other ministries in this synod, and how would a deeper understanding on the part of these ministers bless the work at hand? Where does the gospel intersect these interpretations? I was welcomed at LOTM with enthusiasm and hugs. I had not met Pastor Darlene previously, so Pastor Liliana, Pastor Darlene, and I sat in a conference room talking about ministry and Pastor Darlene asked about my call story. I took about a half-hour to tell the pastors about my life and my call story. Pastor Darlene was very open and accepting. I was rather glad I recorded this interview because I was able to make eye contact with both pastors and be fully aware of their body language. They both spoke with incredible love and passion for the work they have done and are doing. I noticed how they both referenced their deep faith and how they are called to serve the neighbor with love and compassion. I personally appreciated the way Pastor Liliana talked about serving the LGBT community. She spoke with confidence about being inclusive of all God’s children and how no one is excluded from God’s table. She said she preaches inclusivity from the pulpit; an act I respect and appreciate. I remarked, at one time, about how Pastor Darlene was ordained in the early 1980s and how much courage it must have taken to be female and rostered clergy in those days. She smiled a little and quickly started talking about doing ministry. I got the impression she did not feel like a person who broke ground for others to follow, but rather she was doing what she was called to do—preach and proclaim the gospel. Both Pastor Liliana and Pastor Darlene spoke about living out the gospel of love and inclusion. They both stressed the need to do the work of social justice as a part of their work as pastors. Personally, I am encouraged by the work they are doing to reach out to the different faith traditions in Summit County and create relationships with each of them. I was truly inspired by the mural painted on the back of the church; the side facing the interstate. Pictures of the ribbon-like mural will appear on a different page of my blog website to show you all the different symbols of faith traditions and symbols of love and peace that are included in the mural. Pastor Liliana told me about the incredible day when people came to the church to paint the mural. An artist sketched the outline of the mural and people painted in the rest. I find it amazing how a woman from Romania, raised in the Eastern Orthodox Church can end up a Lutheran pastor in the mountains of Colorado. The Lord provided Pastor Liliana with an incredible education in ecumenism and theology which is now being used in incredible ways to help the less fortunate in Summit County. Her love and passion for social justice during her entire lifetime is being utilized in a place where no one would think there are issues related to homelessness, affordable housing, and ecumenical and interfaith outreach. Her statement about creating relationships struck a chord with me. The two commandments Jesus held up—to love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself—are all about being in relationship with God and with each other. Being in relationship with those around you, even the people who don’t look like you, is crucial in creating a world of love and peace.
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